Advocacy vs. Zealotry vs. Who Cares?!? Was RE: [NMLUG]Re:

[neosad1st at charter.net (Robert)]

On Wednesday 01 September 2004 07:57 pm, Daniel Lark wrote:
>
> Harmony doesn't always get the job done. The Linux kernel would not be
> as far along as it is if Linus sought consensus.

No, you're confusing the issues.  I don't see Linus out there flaming other 
OSes and such.  There's a difference between developing new innovative 
software and running around flaming other people.

> If you really want to 
> see a flamefest, just hop onto the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List). I
> remember some particularly heated exchanges between Alan Cox and Hans
> Reiser and Larry McVoy vs. several people over BitKeeper.

"Heated" is relative.  Most sites try to make their discussions out to be more 
heated and dramatic than they actually are.

> However, in 
> the end ReiserFS got into the kernel. There is now a CVS2BK gateway.
>
> > Yes, it goes on.  I'm military, so I more than understand,
> > and these comments
> > do not phase me.  However, just because it's a "cruel world"
> > doesn't mean we
> > have to allow it.  We can accept it while striving to change it.
>
> I have the patience of Job when it comes to people who want to help
> themselves.

? Maybe then you understand why I don't like seeing people running around 
flaming others, as the flamers are themselves typically consumed by blind 
hatred.

> I, however, will not suffer foolish people or foolish things 
> gladly. If "winning friends" means that I cannot assert myself, then
> these are friends that I don't want. Some people need to "RTFM".

That's different.  You can tell them RTFM in a nice way.  It's not cool to 
bash a newbie because they forgot to read the documentation, but you can tell 
them to read it in a way that they will be motivated to do so rather than 
thinking some old Linux hacker told them to "fsck off".

> > That's Delahunt, and I don't know what the origin of it is,
> > sadly. Also, please stop with the assumptions and
> > generalizations.  I have not yet
> > kicked anyone off my channel.  I'm asking people to try to
> > abide by this
> > loftier goal, but I'm not actively enforcing it to the degree you are
> > assuming.  Most of my time is spent "babysitting", as most
> > ops understand.
> > However, if I'm going to run a channel (which is the way it
> > is now, unless
> > the owners of this mailing list care to take ownership, which
> > I will gladly
> > give them), I don't want it ending up like (and pardon the
> > examples, but it
> > is all I understand right now) #debian or #gentoo or any
> > other such channel
> > that has angered me in the past.  I encourage free speech,
> > but I'm not going
> > to put up with the teenager-ish hollow rants.  I'm all for
> > pointing out the
> > strengths and weaknesses in any OS, Linux and Microsoft
> > included.  But to
> > quote psychological ideas, this is similar to drawing a
> > quarter.  Most
> > average people cannot draw on paper what say, a quarter looks
> > like.  However,
> > hand them a penny and they easily recognize what it is.
>
> My bad on the name. (I know several people whose names are
> "DeLa<something>".) Also my bad on assuming some the kicking thing.

No, it's ok with my name, this IS New Mexico.

> However, if you are looking for logical, well spoken and reasoned
> discussions, IRC is ***NOT*** the place to find them.

I find them on IRC, but yes, in general, and sadly, IRC is not the place for 
finding polite or mature people.  However, is it not those polite and/or 
mature people that we look up to?

> IRC, by its 
> nature, is a free form flow ideas.

It's internet relay chat, oh well.

> As such, you get the typed form of 
> diaherrea (sp?) often. While I agree that some of the distro channels
> (or mailing lists, etc.) can get rather childish, I've learned the
> benefits of "/ignore" :-).

True....

> On the old EFNet #linux channel (circa 1992), I remember being chided
> for not RTFMing and not looking at the FAQs. In most (actually all)
> cases, I deserved what I got. However, when I went to these same people
> with legit problems that weren't in the documentation, I got EXCELLENT
> support.

True....  But think back with me.  Did they "RTFM" you in a nice way, or a 
rude way?  And based on _how_ they did so, which people did you come to look 
up to?  Which people did you come to hate?

> Let me just say this if you want civilized conversation start a Wiki.

Maybe I should.

> Seriously. You are asking for something that IRC cannot deliver.

You may have a very good point.  I might decide to do that.  I have a website 
also, but I'm still working on it....

> -dan

See, THIS was a polite and well-spent discussion, and we both learned, mainly 
me.  This is what I'm seeking as opposed to the general immaturity found on 
IRC, which may be why I wanted to create something "different".

-- 
" ... and are endowed by their CREATOR
with certain unalienable rights ... "
-- Declaration of Independence