Advocacy vs. Zealotry vs. Who Cares?!? Was RE: [NMLUG]Re:

[dlark at cukk.org (Daniel Lark)]

Linux Advocacy FAQ is NOT Linux Advocacy Maxim(RobertDelahunt)
 (Daniel Lark)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:50:54 -0400
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<snip> 
> First off, just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean 
> it's "right".  
> Secondly, anyone who considers themselves a professional 
> needs to act as 
> such.  There are a lot of "new" people out there that think 
> that the way they 
> have been all their life is acceptable, and it is not, in 
> fact.  It's mainly 
> in delivery of their message, not their message itself.  
> People need to start 
> reading books like "How to win friends and influence people", 
> etc.  I am not 
> a perfect adherent to this book or others, but it makes me 
> try to attain a 
> loftier goal of harmony with others rather than spit out my 
> opinion not 
> caring who hears me.

Harmony doesn't always get the job done. The Linux kernel would not be
as far along as it is if Linus sought consensus. If you really want to
see a flamefest, just hop onto the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List). I
remember some particularly heated exchanges between Alan Cox and Hans
Reiser and Larry McVoy vs. several people over BitKeeper. However, in
the end ReiserFS got into the kernel. There is now a CVS2BK gateway.
<snip>
> Yes, it goes on.  I'm military, so I more than understand, 
> and these comments 
> do not phase me.  However, just because it's a "cruel world" 
> doesn't mean we 
> have to allow it.  We can accept it while striving to change it.

I have the patience of Job when it comes to people who want to help
themselves. I, however, will not suffer foolish people or foolish things
gladly. If "winning friends" means that I cannot assert myself, then
these are friends that I don't want. Some people need to "RTFM".

> > 5. If I am seeking advocacy, I would seek out things that are 
> > expressly for this; an IRC channel like #nmlug_advocacy, newsgroups 
> > with advocacy in their name, etc. I don't like nor appreciate 
> > reminding (pestering) me of my so called "obligations" are. 
> I cannot 
> > and will not accept this.
> 
> Yes, that's understandable, but my channel does not have this 
> goal in mind.

By trying to steer language, you are doing this in "de facto" manner. 

<snip>
> That's Delahunt, and I don't know what the origin of it is, 
> sadly. Also, please stop with the assumptions and 
> generalizations.  I have not yet 
> kicked anyone off my channel.  I'm asking people to try to 
> abide by this 
> loftier goal, but I'm not actively enforcing it to the degree you are 
> assuming.  Most of my time is spent "babysitting", as most 
> ops understand.  
> However, if I'm going to run a channel (which is the way it 
> is now, unless 
> the owners of this mailing list care to take ownership, which 
> I will gladly 
> give them), I don't want it ending up like (and pardon the 
> examples, but it 
> is all I understand right now) #debian or #gentoo or any 
> other such channel 
> that has angered me in the past.  I encourage free speech, 
> but I'm not going 
> to put up with the teenager-ish hollow rants.  I'm all for 
> pointing out the 
> strengths and weaknesses in any OS, Linux and Microsoft 
> included.  But to 
> quote psychological ideas, this is similar to drawing a 
> quarter.  Most 
> average people cannot draw on paper what say, a quarter looks 
> like.  However, 
> hand them a penny and they easily recognize what it is.

My bad on the name. (I know several people whose names are
"DeLa<something>".) Also my bad on assuming some the kicking thing.

However, if you are looking for logical, well spoken and reasoned
discussions, IRC is ***NOT*** the place to find them. IRC, by its
nature, is a free form flow ideas. As such, you get the typed form of
diaherrea (sp?) often. While I agree that some of the distro channels
(or mailing lists, etc.) can get rather childish, I've learned the
benefits of "/ignore" :-).

On the old EFNet #linux channel (circa 1992), I remember being chided
for not RTFMing and not looking at the FAQs. In most (actually all)
cases, I deserved what I got. However, when I went to these same people
with legit problems that weren't in the documentation, I got EXCELLENT
support.

Let me just say this if you want civilized conversation start a Wiki.
Seriously. You are asking for something that IRC cannot deliver.

-dan